via 
Salon
In recent years, there’s been a small genre of left-of-center journalism that, following 
President Obama’s lead, endeavors to prove that things on Planet Earth are not just going well, but have, in fact, 
never been better. This is an inherently subjective claim, of course; it requires that one buy into 
the idea of human progress,
 for one thing. But no matter how it was framed, there’s at least one 
celebrated leftist activist, author and journalist who’d disagree: Chris
 Hedges.
 
In fact, in his latest book, “
Wages of Rebellion: The Moral Imperative of Revolt,”
 Hedges argues that the world is currently at a crisis point the likes 
of which we’ve never really seen. There are similarities between our 
time and the era of the 1848 revolutions throughout Europe — or the 
French Revolutionary era that preceded them — he says. But in many ways,
 climate change least among them, the stakes this time are much higher. 
According to Hedges, a revolution is coming; we just don’t yet know 
when, where, how — or on whose behalf.
 
Recently, Salon 
spoke over the phone with Hedges to discuss his book, why he thinks our 
world is in for some massive disruptions, and why we need 
revolutionaries now more than ever. A transcript of our conversation 
which has been edited for clarity and length can be found below.
Do you think we are in a revolutionary era now? Or is it more something on the horizon?
It’s with us already, but with this caveat: it is what 
Gramsci
 calls interregnum, this period where the ideas that buttress the old 
ruling elite no longer hold sway, but we haven’t articulated something 
to take its place.
 
That’s what that essay I quote by 
Alexander Berkman, “The Invisible Revolution,” talks about. He likens it
 to a pot that’s beginning to boil. So it’s already taking place, 
although it’s subterranean. And the facade of power — both the physical 
facade of power and the ideological facade of power — appears to remain 
intact. But it has less and less credibility.
There are 
all sorts of neutral indicators that show that. Low voter turnout, the 
fact that Congress has an approval rating of 7 percent, that polls 
continually reflect a kind of pessimism about where we are going, that 
many of the major systems that have been set in place — especially in 
terms of internal security — have no popularity at all.
All
 of these are indicators that something is seriously wrong, that the 
government is no longer responding to the most basic concerns, needs, 
and rights of the citizenry. That is [true for the] left and right. But 
what’s going to take it’s place, that has not been articulated. Yes, we 
are in a revolutionary moment; but maybe it’s a better way to describe 
it as a revolutionary process.
Is there a revolutionary consciousness building in America?
Well,
 it is definitely building. But until there is an ideological framework 
that large numbers of people embrace to challenge the old ideological 
framework, nothing is going to happen. Some things can happen; you can 
have sporadic uprisings as you had in Ferguson or you had in Baltimore. 
But until they are infused with that kind of political vision, they are 
reactive, in essence.
So you have, every 28 hours, a 
person of color, usually a poor person of color, being killed with 
lethal force — and, of course, in most of these cases they are unarmed. 
So people march in the streets and people protest; and yet the killings 
don’t stop. Even when they are captured on video. I mean we have videos 
of people being murdered by the police and the police walk away. This is
 symptomatic of a state that is ossified and can no longer respond 
rationally to what is happening to the citizenry, because it exclusively
 serves the interest of corporate power.
We have, to quote 
John Ralston Saul,
 “undergone a corporate coup d’état in slow motion” and it’s over. The 
normal mechanisms by which we carry out incremental and piecemeal reform
 through liberal institutions no longer function. They have been seized 
by corporate power — including the press. That sets the stage for 
inevitable blowback, because these corporations have no internal 
constraints, and now they have no external constraints. So they will 
exploit, because, as Marx understood, that’s their nature, until 
exhaustion or collapse.
 
What do you think is the most likely way that the people will respond to living in these conditions?
That
 is the big unknown. When it will come is unknown. What is it that will 
trigger it is unknown. You could go back and look at past uprisings, 
some of which I covered — I covered all the revolutions in Eastern 
Europe; I covered the two Palestinian uprisings; I covered the street 
demonstrations that eventually brought down Slobodan Milosevic — and 
it’s usually something banal.
As a reporter, you know 
that it’s there; but you never know what will ignite it. So you have 
Lenin, six weeks before the revolution, in exile in Switzerland, getting
 up and saying, We who are old will never live to see the revolution. 
Even the purported leaders of the opposition never know when it’s 
coming. Nor do they know what will trigger it.
                                
                            
                    
What kind of person engages in revolutionary activity? Is there a specific type?
There
 are different types, but they have certain characteristics in common. 
That’s why I quote theologian Reinhold Niebuhr when he talks about 
“sublime madness.”
I think that sublime madness — James 
Baldwin writes it’s not so much that [revolutionaries] have a vision, 
it’s that they are possessed by it. I think that’s right. They are often
 difficult, eccentric personalities by nature, because they are stepping
 out front to confront a system of power [in a way that is] almost a 
kind of a form of suicide. But in moments of extremity, these rebels are
 absolutely key; and that you can’t pull off seismic change without 
them.
You’ve said that we don’t know where the 
change will come from, and that it could just as easily take a 
right-wing, reactionary form as a leftist one. Is there anything lefties
 can do to influence the outcome? Or is it out of anyone’s control?
There’s
 so many events as societies disintegrate that you can’t predict. They 
play such a large part in shaping how a society goes that there is a lot
 of it that is not in your control.
For example, if you 
compare the breakdown of Yugoslavia with the breakdown of Czechoslovakia
 — and I covered both of those stories — Yugoslavia was actually the 
Eastern European country best-equipped to integrate itself into Europe. 
But Yugoslavia went bad. When the economy broke down and Yugoslavia was 
hit with horrific hyperinflation, it vomited up these terrifying figures
 in the same way that Weimar vomited up the Nazi party. Yugoslavia tore 
itself to pieces.
If things unravel [in the U.S.], our 
backlash may very well be a rightwing backlash — a very frightening 
rightwing backlash. We who care about populist movements [on the left] 
are very weak, because in the name of anti-communism 
these movements have been destroyed;
 we are almost trying to rebuild them from scratch. We don’t even have 
the language to describe the class warfare that is being unleashed upon 
us by this tiny, rapacious, oligarchic elite. But we on the left are 
very disorganized, unfocused, and without resources.
 
                                
                            
In terms of  a 
left-wing populism having to build itself back up from scratch, do you 
see the broad coalition against the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) as a
 hint of what that might look like? Or would you not go that far?
No, I would.
I
 think that if you look at what’s happened after Occupy, it’s either 
spawned or built alliances with a series of movements; whether it’s 
#BlackLivesMatter, whether it’s the Fight for $15 campaign, whether it’s
 challenging the TPP. I think they are all interconnected and, often 
times — at least when I’m with those activists — there is a political 
consciousness that I find quite mature.
Are you optimistic about the future?
I
 covered war for 20 years; we didn’t use terms like pessimist or 
optimist, because if you were overly optimistic, it could get you 
killed. You really tried to read the landscape as astutely as you could 
and then take calculated risks based on the reality around you, or at 
least on the reality insofar as you could interpret it. I kind of bring 
that mentality out of war zones.
If we are not brutal 
about diagnosing what we are up against, then all of our resistance is 
futile. If we think that voting for Hillary Clinton … is really going to
 make a difference, then I would argue we don’t understand corporate 
power and how it works. If you read the writings of anthropologists, 
there are studies about how civilizations break down; and we are 
certainly following that pattern. Unfortunately, there’s nothing within 
human nature to argue that we won’t go down the ways other civilizations
 have gone down. The difference is now, of course, that when we go down,
 the whole planet is going to go with us.
Yet you rebel 
not only for what you can achieve, but for who you become. In the end, 
those who rebel require faith — not a formal or necessarily Christian, 
Jewish or Muslim orthodoxy, but a faith that the good draws to it the 
good. That we are called to carry out the good insofar as we can 
determine what the good is; and then we let it go. The Buddhists call it
 karma, but faith is the belief that it goes somewhere. By standing up, 
you keep alive another narrative. It’s one of the ironic points of life.
 That, for me, is what provides hope; and if you are not there, there is
 no hope at all.